Talk:Holy Confucian Church

Name translation

This page should be taken off the net. Although most of the facts about the Confucius society are true the title of the page, the translation of the Chinese name and facts about Confucianism are totally wrong. There is no Holy Confucian Church and Confucius is not worshiped(not as a god). He is honoured as a ancestor. Or better the temples are places where people pay respect to Confucius in the same way they do to Mao at the Mao memorial in Changsha. 孔圣会 means the Confucius society. 圣 does not mean holy here, it is a title in the same way as 孔子 (master Kong). In another linked page it says Confucius is worshiped as the Culture God 文帝。 帝 does not mean god in itself, 上帝 does . I tried to make changes in the pages but it was taken away as not constructive. I will discuss this with the Confucius organisation and ask them to provide an official English name for the organisation. Then the title and name Holy Confucian Church should be taken away on all pages it appears. The content of this page is not verifiable. Non of the links shown as reference lead to any material that verifies any existents of a Holy Confucian Church. (mnflute)

You appear to have issues with general religious terminology just because in the West it is most commonly applied to Christianity and Christian concepts. However, even Western terminology pre-dates Christianity. 孔圣会 Kongshenghui → 孔 Kong is "Confucius"; 圣 sheng uncontroversially means "holy", "hallowed" (or "hallow/saint" in the case it is attributed to people); 会 hui means any gathering in general, which in socio-religious context terminology is translatable as "church".--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 16:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

There is no "Holy" Confucian Church

Agree with the first comment. At best, this page appears to be grossly mistranslated, maybe for the promotion of an idea years ago. There is no such thing as the "Holy Confucian Church". The single reference that the page relies upon, makes no actual mention of it. Search the internet yourself and you'll currently come up with nothing about this alleged holy church. Travelmite (talk) 23:52, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The meaning that "holy" has for the HCC is explained in this 2015 interview to Chen Ming, the vice-chairman of the church's scholarly committee at that time: https://web.archive.org/web/20170213190347/http://news.sohu.com/20151120/n427407420.shtml

It refers to the sacred order of Heaven and ancestral ties, which are object of worship in the Confucian tradition. Æo (talk) 18:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 14 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Holy Confucian Church → Kongshenghui – "Holy Confucian Church" is gross mistranslation of "Kongshenghui", as rightfully pointed out by other people on this talk page. (sheng 圣 doesn't just mean "holy" or "saint". In this context, a much better translation would be "sage". This is yet another example of people trying to apply "Western" notions of religion onto Confucianism and other Chinese traditions. Translating hui 会 as "Church" also misses most of the nuance with that term. The proper Chinese term for church is jiaohui 教会. A better translation would be "Sagely Confucian Association" or "Association of the Sage Confucius", as it is supposed to be a federation of component "Kongshengtang") Plus, there are no sources that use "Holy Confucian Church" (Google only found Wikipedia and websites that copy Wikipedia). Both of the sources in the article don't use "Holy Confucian Church" either. The first talks about "Kongshengtang", which are the Kongshenghui's component organizations, and the second uses "Kongshenghui", as evident from the title itself. Thus, I believe that just using "Kongshenghui" as the title is the best solution, given that both of the sources use some variation of it and the title itself is difficult to translate. Mucube (talk • contribs) 05:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 09:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 10:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject China has been notified of this discussion. ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 09:58, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

strong oppose 30x more results for Holy Confucian Church than Kongshenghui . This title is actually informative to an english speaker Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 02:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@Immanuelle: A Google search for "Holy Confucian Church" only brings up disreputable websites that copy content from Wikipedia. Meanwhile, a search for "Kongshenghui" in Google Books brings up many reliable sources. A search for "Kongshengtang" in Google Books also brings up many sources. A search for "Holy Confucian Church" in Google Books also brings up some sources, but not as many. WP:COMMONNAME says that the article title should be the one used in the majority of English-language reliable sources, so the article title should be "Kongshenghui" (or maybe the component "Kongshengtang"). Mucube (talk • contribs) 18:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

As I have already stated, "Holy Confucian Church" is a gross mistranslation of the real Chinese term. Not all Chinese terms need to be translated. The wu wei article is titled "wu wei", not "Principle of No Action". Mucube (talk • contribs) 19:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you also propose moving Confucian Church Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 22:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

No, this is the common English name. For example: [1] Mucube (talk • contribs) 17:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Kang Youwei's Confucian Church (kong jiaohui 孔教会) is completely unrelated from the Kongshenghui anyway. Mucube (talk • contribs) 17:14, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Well these people seem to think they are related https://web.archive.org/web/20180117155316/http://www.rujiazg.com/article/id/6921/

Kong**shen**hui vs Kong**jiao**hui is not like this has an adjective attached to it so the English title is a bit misleading that way, but the connection may still be worth preserving in the title Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 07:38, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

We should be looking at the sources to determine the title of the article, and the sources use either "Kongshenghui" or "Kongshengtang". What some people think shouldn't matter.

And, as I have stated before "holy" is only one meaning of 圣. I hope you agree that "holy man" is a bad translation of 圣人. Mucube (talk • contribs) 15:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose: While I agree that titles of articles about concepts of Chinese culture and thought (e.g. wu wei) should be in pinyin, since Chinese graphemes are polysemantic, there is not much polysemanticity here and the standard for articles about Chinese institutions is to translate their name into English (e.g. "Buddhist Association of China"). In this case, sheng is attached to and refers to hui, not to Kong; that is to say, the construct is Kong shenghui, similar to Kang Youwei's Kong jiaohui, which is also an inspirational forerunner of the former. Therefore, the translation "Holy Confucian Church (i.e. Assembly)" is correct, while "Assembly of the Sage/Saint Confucius" would not be correct. The scholar of religion Massimo Introvigne translated it as "Holy Confucian Church" in this article.--Æo (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

  "Kongshenghui" can be translated as "Holy Confucian Church", "Holy Confucian Association", "Sagely Confucian Association", "Sagely Confucian Church", "Sagely Confucian Assembly", "Holy Confucian Assembly", and at least 50 other ways. We can't just pick one and use it, because the Kongshenghui has no official English name or even a website, for that matter. Mucube (talk • contribs) 05:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  "Society" or "association" always seems to be specialised by 协 xie attached to hui, while the latter alone is an "assembly" or "gathering", which in the context of religion is a "church". Regarding "holy" and "sagely", the latter is odd if applied to abstract concepts such as an organisation, or group of like-minded people; therefore, the most appropriate translation in this case is "holy" (which does not necessarily imply the acceptations that such a term has in Western religions). Anyway, the fact that "Holy Confucian Church" was the translation used by a scholar of religion should be enough to accept it also on Wikipedia. Æo (talk) 15:25, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  The Sage and the People book, cited in the article, translates "Kongshengtang", the title of the Kongshenghui's component organization, as "Halls of the Sage" and "Halls of the Sage Confucius". Mucube (talk • contribs) 03:16, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, but the subject of this article is the general concept and organisation, not the single Confucian halls.--Æo (talk) 17:29, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  There are other translations for "Kongshenghui" used in reliable sources other than "Holy Confucian Church". This translates it as "Chinese Church of Kongzi", and this and this both translate it as "Chinese Association of Confucius the Holy Sage". Mucube (talk • contribs) 22:55, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  All these translations are rather inaccurate and redundant; in the Chinese name there are neither Kongzi nor "holy sage" (圣人 shengren?). Notice that the second book you cited also gives other translations, including "Chinese Church of the Holy Confucius" (4th occurrence in the book), which, however, is an inaccurate translation since, as I wrote in my comment above, sheng refers to hui, not to Kong. Æo (talk) 00:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

  I'm just trying to demonstrate that there are other translations of "Kongshenghui" in reliable sources than "Holy Confucian Church". We can't just pick one and only use that one, there are tons of others. Plus, most of the sources use "Kongshenghui" and put the translation in parentheses. Mucube (talk • contribs) 05:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UE. A bit surprised to see this relisted, given that OP's nomination does not appear to have support from any other editors. 162 etc. (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

5th conversion ceremony of disciples

深圳孔圣堂隆重举办第五届“归宗礼” 二十名弟子归宗儒门, 12 June 2020. Æo (talk) 00:35, 27 February 2023 (UTC)